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To-do list for Landmark Worldwide: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2015-01-22

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : Add some images with detailed fair-use rationale, or if possible, some free images, to the article.
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Expand : Expand and add to the article from the citations currently cited in the See Also and References sections.
Update : Add information/expand from more recent citations in secondary sources, if known/available.
Other : Partial list of sources with relevant material in cite format...
- Journalism
  - Alford, Henry (28 November 2010). "You're O.K., But I'm Not. Let's Share". New York Times. New York. p. L1.
  - Anderson, Kurt (2007). "Son of EST: The Terminator of Self-Doubt". In Ross, Lillian (ed.). The Fun of It: Stories from The Talk of the Town; The New Yorker. New York: Vintage Books/Random House. p. 413. ISBN 0375756493.
  - Baker, Richard; McKenzie, Nick (30 August 2011). "Department Chops $80,000 'Charisma' Seminar". The Age. Melbourne, Victoria: Fairfax Media.
  - Beam, Alex (6 November 1998). "A Harvard Forum For Self-Promotion?". Boston Globe. Boston Massachussets.
  - Beam, Alex (2 April 1999). "Case in Point". Boston Globe. Boston Massachussets.
  - Boulware, Jack (2000). San Francisco Bizarro. New York: Macmillan/St. Martins. p. 38. ISBN 0312206712.
  - Collier, Roger (18 November 2014). "10 health stories that mattered: Oct. 11–17". Canadian Medical Association Journal. Ottawa, Ontario: Canadian Medical Association. 186 (17). doi:10.1503/cmaj.109-4924.
  - Davidson, James (17 October 1987). "Businessmen get expert coaching". Globe & Mail. Toronto. p. B1.
  - Elsener, Marcel (3 September 2014). "Landmark spielt schon lange keine Rolle mehr". Thurgauer Zeitung. St. Galler, Thurgau Switzerland: St. Galler Tagblatt AG. Retrieved 5 September 2014.
  - Faltermayer, Charlotte (24 June 2001). "The Best of est?". Time Magazine. New York. Retrieved 8 December 2014.
  - Goldwag, Arthur (2009). Cults, Conspiracies, and Secret Societies. New York: Knopf Doubleday. pp. 28–30. ISBN 9780307390677.
  - Grigoriadis, Vanessa (9 July 2001). "Pay Money, Be Happy". New York Magazine. New York, New York. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
  - Hellard, Peta (11 June 2006). "Stress Fear in $700 Child Forum: WA children as young as eight who attend "life-changing" coaching sessions by a controversial US company could have difficulty with their schoolwork afterwards, according to experts". Sunday Times. Perth, Western Australia: News Corporation.
  - Jaffe, Eric (15 November 2010). "A look at four psychology fads: The basics of est, primal therapy, Transcendental Meditation and lucid dreaming". Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, California. Retrieved 9 September 2014.
  - Kaminer, Wendy (1993). I'm Disfunctional, You're Disfunctional. New York: Vintage Books/Random House. ISBN 0-679-74585-8.
  - Lutz, Ashley (9 January 2014). "Lululemon Spends $500 for Workers to Attend a Controversial Retreat Endorsed by Founder Chip Wilson". Business Insider. New York, New York: Business Insider, Inc. Retrieved 5 September 2014.
  - McClure, Laura (July/August 2009). "The Landmark Forum: 42 Hours, $500, 65 Breakdowns; My lost weekend with the trademark happy, bathroom-break hating, slightly spooky inheritors of est". Mother Jones. San Francisco, California. Retrieved 8 December 2014. Check date values in: |date= (help)
  - Russell, Charles; Russell, Jennie (15 October 2014). "AHS employee complaint over Landmark seminars sparks review: Public Interest Commissioner will look into complaint over controversial Landmark Education training". CBC News. Ottawa, Ontario. Retrieved 8 December 2014.
  - Russell, Charles; Russell, Jennie (15 October 2014). "Alberta Health Services staff pressured to attend controversial seminars: Government continued to use Landmark Education despite employee complaints". CBC News. Ottawa, Ontario. Retrieved 8 December 2014.
  - Russell, Charles; Russell, Jennie (17 October 2014). "Alberta Health Services hired 'coach' to implement Landmark ideology: Sole-source contract breached department policy". CBC News. Ottawa, Ontario. Retrieved 2014-10-25.
  - Scioscia, Amanda (19 October 2000). "Drive-thru Deliverance: It's not called est anymore, but you can still be ridiculed into self-awareness in just one expensive weekend". Phoenix New Times. Phoenix, Arizona.
  - Sexton, Mike (15 November 2011). "Landmark's controversial training programs". 7.30. Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Retrieved 5 September 2014. Unknown parameter |serieslink= ignored (help)
  - staff (3 September 2014). "Cults Week—Café Gratitude and the Cult of Commerce". Curbed LA. Los Angeles: Curbed. Retrieved 11 November 2014.
  - staff (17 December 2013). "Landmark Education Targeting Indians with Its Overpriced Courses". Moneylife. Dadar, Mumbai: Hind Service Industries.
  - Welkos, Robert W. (29 December 1991). "Scientologists Ran Campaign to Discredit Erhard, Detective Says: Religion: Competition for customers said to be the motive behind investigation launched into activities of the est founder". Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, California.
  - Walsh, Nikki (19 February 2012). "One Weekend to Fix Your Life?". Irish Mail on Sunday.
  - McNutt, Helen (December 2006). "Managing My Inner Brat". The Sunday Times. London.
  - Thornburg, Nathan (7 March 2011). "Change We Can (Almost) Believe In". TIME.
  - Kim, Jen (16 July 2013). "Why We Are the Way We Are". Psychology Today.
  - Lieber, Chavie (8 January 2014). "The Self-Help Movement Behind Lululemon's Eerie Dogma". Racked.
  - Capuzzo, Jill (March 1996). "Come on! There's a New Life Waiting Over the Weekend". Philadelphia Inquirer.
  - Thorne, Matt (13 July 2008). "Chuck Palahniuk talks sex dolls, strippers and the one subject he won't write about". The Independent.
  - Bernstein, Elizabeth (16 April 2011). "Friendly Fight: A Smarter Way to Say 'I'm Angry'". Wall Street Journal.
  - Taylor, Camille (26 November 2008). "A Dream to Transform Self, Company and Country". Jamaica Gleaner.
- Sociology
  - Arweck, Elisabeth (2004). Researching New Religious Movements: Responses and Redefinitions. Leiden: Brill. ISBN 0203642376.
  - Aupers, Stef (2005). "'We Are All Gods': New Age in the Netherlands 1960-2000". In Sengers, Erik (ed.). The Dutch and Their Gods: Secularization and Transformation of Religion in the Netherlands. Studies in Dutch Religious History. 3. Hilversum: Verloren. p. 193. ISBN 9065508678.
  - Barker, Eileen (2005). "New Religious Movements in Europe". In Jones, Lindsay (ed.). Encyclopedia of Religion. Detroit: Macmillan Reference. ISBN 9780028657431.
  - Beckford, James A.; Levasseur, Martine (1986). "New Religious movements in Western Europe". In Beckford, James A. (ed.). New Religious Movements and Rapid Social Change. London: Sage/UNESCO. ISBN 92-3-102-402-7.
  - Beckford, James A. (2004). "New Religious Movements and Globalization". In Lucas, Phillip Charles; Robbins, Thomas (eds.). New Religious Movements in the 21st Century. Abingdon and New York: Routledge. p. 208. ISBN 0-415-96576-4.
  - George D. Chryssides (2001). Historical Dictionary of New Religious Movements. Lanham, Maryland: Scarecrow. ISBN 0810840952.
  - Clarke, Peter B. (2006). New Religions in Global Perspective: A Study of Religious Change in the Modern World. Abingdon: Routledge. pp. 11, 102–103. ISBN 9780415257480.
  - Cresswell, Jamie; Wilson, Bryan, eds. (1999). New Religious Movements. Routledge. p. 35. ISBN 0415200504.
  - Greeley, Andrew M. (1995). Sociology and Religion: a Collection of Readings. London: HarperCollins. p. 299. ISBN 0065018818.
  - Hammer, Olav; Rothstein, Mikael, eds. (2012). The Cambridge Companion to New Religious Movements. Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press. pp. 19, 45. ISBN 9780521145657.
  - Helas, Paul (1991). "Western Europe: Self Religion". In Clarke, Peter; Sutherland, Stewart (eds.). The World's Religions: The Study of Religion, Traditional and New Religion. London: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-06432-5.
  - Jenkins, Philip (2000). Mystics and Messiahs: Cults and New Religions in American History. London: Oxford University Press. p. 180. ISBN 0195127447.
  - Kurtz, Lester R. (2007). Gods in the Global Village: The World's Religions in Sociological Perspective. Thousand Oaks, California: Pine Forge. p. 219. ISBN 9781412927154.
  - Lewis, James R. (2004). The Encyclopedic Sourcebook of New Age Religions. Prometheus Books. p. 187. ISBN 1591020409.
  - Lockwood, Renee (2011). "Religiosity Rejected: Exploring the Religio-Spiritual Dimensions of Landmark Education". International Journal for the Study of New Religions. Sheffield, England: Equinox. 2 (2): 225–254. ISSN 2041-9511.
  - Lockwood, Renee D. (June 2012). "Pilgrimages to the Self: Exploring the Topography of Western Consumer Spirituality through 'the Journey'". Literature & Aesthetics. Sydney, New South Wales: Sydney Society of Literature and Aesthetics. 22 (1): 111, 125. ISSN 1036-9368.
  - Nelson, Geoffrey K. (1987). Cults, New Religions and Religious Creativity. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul. ISBN 0-7102-0855-3.
  - Palmer, Dominic (2011). The New Heretics of France. New York: Oxford University Press. pp. 27, 160–161, 186. ISBN 9780199735211.
  - Parsons, Gerald (1993). "Expanding the religious spectrum: New Religious Movements in Modern Britain". In Parsons, Gerald (ed.). The Growth of Religious Diversity: Britain from 1945: Volume 1 Traditions. Abingdon and New York: Routledge. ISBN 0415083265.
  - Ramstedt, Martin (2007). "New Age and Business: Corporations as Cultic Milieus?". In Kemp, Daren; Lewis, James R. (eds.). Handbook of the New Age. Brill Handbooks on Contemporary Religion. 1. Leiden: BRILL. pp. 196–197. ISBN 9789004153554.
  - Roof, Wade Clark; McKinney, William, eds. (1987). American Mainline Religion: Its Changing Shape and Future. New Brunswick, New Jersey: Rutgers University Press. p. 245. ISBN 0813512158.
  - Rupert, Glenn A. (1992). Lewis, James R.; Melton, J. Gordon (eds.). Perspectives on the New Age. Albany, New York: SUNY Press. p. 130. ISBN 079141213X.
  - Siegler, Elijah (2004). "Marketing Lazaris". In Lewis, James R. (ed.). The Encyclopedic Sourcebook of New Age Religions. Amherst, New York: Prometheus. ISBN 1591020409.
  - Taliaferro, Charles; Harrison, Victoria S.; Goetz, Stewart, eds. (2012). The Routledge Companion to Theism. Routledge. p. 123. ISBN 9780415881647.
  - Wallis, Roy (1991). "North America". In Clarke, Peter; Sutherland, Stewart (eds.). The World's Religions: The Study of Religion, Traditional and New Religion. London: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-06432-5.
  - Wuthnow, Robert (1986). "Religious movements in North America". In Beckford, James A. (ed.). New Religious Movements and Rapid Social Change. London: Sage/UNESCO. ISBN 92-3-102-402-7.
  - York, Michael (1995). The Emerging Network: A Sociology of the New Age and Neo-pagan Movements. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 55–57. ISBN 0847680010.
- History
  - Roth, Matthew (2011). "Coming Together: The Communal Option". In Carlsson, Chris; Elliott, Lisa Ruth (eds.). Ten Years That Shook the City: San Francisco 1968-1978. San Francisco: City Lights. pp. 201–202. ISBN 9781931404129.
  - Sandbrook, Dominic (2012). Mad As Hell: The Crisis of the 1970s and the Rise of the Populist Right. New York: Anchor Books. pp. 168–169. ISBN 9781400077243.
- Religion and philosophy
  - Collins, Gary R. (1998). The Soul Search: A Spiritual Journey to Authentic Intimacy with God. Nashville: Thomas Nelson. ISBN 0785274111.
  - Evans, Jules (2013). Philosophy for Life and Other Dangerous Situations. Novato, California: New World Library. pp. 135–142. ISBN 9781608682294.
  - Hexham, Irving (1993). The Concise Dictionary of Religion. Vancouver, B.C.: Regent College Publishing. pp. 75–76. ISBN 1573831204.
  - Hexham, Irving (2002). Pocket Dictionary of New Religious Movements. Downers Grove, Illinois: IVP Academic. p. 47. ISBN 0830814663.
  - Kyle, Richard (1993). Religious Fringe: A History of Alternative Religions in America. Downers Grove, Illinois: Intervarsity. ISBN 0830817662. Est is no ordinary California cult. Rather, as John Clark points out, it is 'a form of secular salvation.' It is 'secular' because it is not identified with any formal religion. In fact, est denies being a religion at all. Yet est does propound a worldview and does have religious overtones. Since its purpose is to alter one's epistemology and instill a monistic or pantheistic belief in impersonal divinity, est qualifies as religious in the expansive use of the term.
  - Richardson, James T. (1998). "est (THE FORUM)". In Swatos, Jr., William H. (ed.). Encyclopedia of Religion and Society. Walnut Creek, California: AltaMira. pp. 167–168. ISBN 0761989560.
  - Saliba, John A. (2003). Understanding New Religious Movements. Walnut Creek, California: Rowman Altamira. p. 88. ISBN 9780759103559.
  - Smith, Jonathan Z., ed. (1995). HarperCollins Dictionary of Religion. New York: HarperSanFrancisco. pp. 343, 365, 795. ISBN 0060675152.
  - Vitz, Paul C. (1994). Psychology as Religion: The Cult of Self-worship. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans. pp. 26–28. ISBN 0802807259.
  - Young, Wendy Warren (1987). "The Aims and Methods of 'est' and 'The Centres Network'". In Clarke, Peter Bernard (ed.). The New Evangelists: Recruitment Methods and Aims of New Religious Movements. London: Ethnographica. pp. 134–147. ISBN 0905788605.
- Business
  - Atkin, Douglas (2004). "What Is Required of a Belief System?". The Culting of Brands: Turn Your Customers Into True Believers. New York: Penguin/Portfolio. p. 101. ISBN 9781591840275.
  - Black, Jonathan (2006). Yes You Can!: Behind the Hype and Hustle of the Motivation Biz. New York: Bloomsbury. p. 133. ISBN 9781596910003.
  - Hayes, Dennis (1989). Behind the Silicon Curtain: The Seductions of Work in a Lonely Era. Boston: South End Press. pp. 120–121. ISBN 0896083500.
  - Ries, Al (2005). Focus: The Future of Your Company Depends on It. New York: HarperCollins. p. 164. ISBN 9780060799908.
  - Sosik, John J. (2006). Leading with Character: Stories of Valor and Virtue and the Principles They Teach. Greenwich, Connecticut: Information Age. pp. 16–17. ISBN 9781593115418.
  - Wildflower, Leni (2013). The Hidden History of Coaching. Maidenhead: McGraw-Hill. p. 101. ISBN 9780335245406.
- Psychiatry and psychology
  - Barker, Eileen (1996). "New Religions and Mental Health". In Bhugra, Dinesh (ed.). Psychiatry and Religion: Context, Consensus and Controversies. London and New York: Routledge. p. 126. ISBN 0415089557. Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  - Brewer, Mark (August 1975). "We're Gonna Tear You Down and Put You Back Together". Psychology Today. New York: Sussex. 9: 35–39.
  - Chappell, Clive; Rhodes, Carl; Solomon, Nicky; Tennant, Mark; Yates, Lyn, eds. (2003). Reconstructing the Lifelong Learner: Pedagogy and Identity in Individual, Organisational and Social Change. London: RoutledgeFalmer. pp. 94–106. ISBN 0415263484.
  - Colman, Andrew M. (2009). A Dictionary of Psychology. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press. pp. 260, 412. ISBN 9780199534067.
  - Conway, Flo; Siegelman, Jim (1995). Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change. New York: Stillpoint. pp. 15–18. ISBN 0964765004.
  - Eisner, Donald A. (2000). The Death of Psychotherapy: From Freud to Alien Abductions. Westport, Connecticut: Praeger. p. 60. ISBN 0275964132.
  - Farber, Sharon Klayman (2012). Hungry for Ecstasy: Trauma, the Brain, and the Influence of the Sixties. Lanham, Maryland: Jason Aronson/Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 131, 134, 139. ISBN 9780765708588.
  - Galanter, Marc (1989). Cults and New Religious Movements. American Psychiatric Association. p. 31. ISBN 0890422125.
  - Gastil, John (2010). The Group in Society. Thousand Oaks and London: SAGE. pp. 226–227. ISBN 9781412924689.
  - Klar, Yechiel; Mendola, Richard; Fisher, Jeffrey D.; Silver, Roxane Cohen; Chinsky, Jack M.; Goff, Barry (1990). "Characteristics of Participants in a Large Group Awareness Training". Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. Washington, D.C.: American Psychological Association. 58 (1): 99–108. ISSN 0022-006X.
  - Klar, Yechiel; Mendola, Richard; Fisher, Jeffrey D.; Silver, Roxane Cohen; Chinsky, Jack M.; Goff, Barry (1990). Evaluating a Large Group Awareness Training. New York: Springer-Verlag. ISBN 0387973206. (full study)
  - Koocher, Gerald P.; Keith-Spiegel, Patricia (2008). Ethics in Psychology and the Mental Health Professions: Standards and Cases. New York: Oxford University Press. p. 151. ISBN 9780195149111.
  - Moskowitz, Eva S. (2001). In Therapy We Trust: America's Obsession with Self Fulfillment. Baltimore, Maryland: John Hopkins University Press. pp. 236–239. ISBN 0801864038.
  - Oakes, Len (1997). Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities. Syracuse, New York: Syracuse University Press. pp. 51, 189. ISBN 0815627009.
  - Paris, Joel (2013). Psychotherapy in an Age of Narcissism: Modernity, Science, and Society. New York: Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 20–21. ISBN 9780230336964.
  - Rubinstein, Gidi (2005). "Characteristics of participants in the Forum, psychotherapy clients, and control participants: A comparative study". Psychology and Psychotherapy: Theory, Research and Practice. Leicester: British Psychological Society (78): 481–492.
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The Arbitration Committee has authorized uninvolved administrators to impose discretionary sanctions on users who edit pages related to Landmark Worldwide, including this article.

Provided the awareness criteria are met, discretionary sanctions may be used against editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process.

Sub-headers in Article[edit]

I noticed someone added a sub-header in the article on the French video. That is inconsistent with the rest of the article and provides that with a lot of emphasis- that topic has been hashed through and de-emphasized in this article many times before. I would suggest removing the sub-header if no one objects. Alex Jackl (talk) 16:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I added that sub-header, because with ~40% of the criticism section devoted to that one video, I feel it is appropriate to give its own section. With ~ 10% of the sources in this article for just that video section, I see no reason it should be "de-emphasized". I added a title I feel is neutrally descriptive. ---Avatar317 ^(talk) 22:25, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

I see no reason to give the French TV programme any different treatment from any other items in this section, so I have removed the sub-head. DaveApter (talk) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

It looks like someone came in and just added in MORE sub--headers to the criticism section. I also do not see this as balanced or consistent with the rest of the article. I will remove. Alex Jackl (talk) 17:59, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Accuracy and neutrality of subheadings[edit]

I changed the sub-head "Scientists' views" to "Academics' opinions", and it was promptly reverted. I would contend that the original version is not only misleading but inaccurate. The writers in almost all of the references are sociologists, and so would more accurately be described as academics than as scientists. The only one who is a scientist - Charles Watson - is mentioned as a result of a one line quotation in a lifestyle article in an Australian tabloid. Incidentally, his remark was made in support of Landmark, which is not at all clear to a reader of this paragraph. And why is views preferable to opinions? It seems to have been chosen to provide a spurious air of objectivity and authority, as contrasted with the mere "opinions" of reporters, in the sub-head of the paragraph below. DaveApter (talk) 17:40, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

I re-ordered this whole section with an earlier edit to group (scientists) then (reporters) then (French show). I haven't read the sources to challenge your critique of Scientists/Academics, but I named it Scientists because the first sentence says: "Scientists are divided..." (Apparently you don't think of sociologists as Scientists and you want to demote their status to Academics.)

If "views" adds more weight to their opinions, than I believe it is due here, because academics are the type of people who are more knowledgeable in this area...they study religions/cults/psychology. Reporters are no different than everyday uneducated (in those specific fields) people who took the Forum and reported their opinions on it. Wikipedia SHOULD give their opinions less weight, and should be reported more as opinion, unless their article surveyed academics and reported on what academics stated.

Lastly, I take issue with your other edit (which was also reverted in the same action) because the "Media comment" would include all reporters (the sub-section above), and demotes the French show in the same manner as you're complaining about with Views/Opinions. The French show got so much press (five references here) that I believe it is big enough for its own sub-section. I wasn't the one who renamed it to "documentary"... I had named it "French journalism video". ---Avatar317 ^(talk) 21:01, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I don't concur that referring to someone as an 'academic' is a "demotion" from referring to them as a 'scientist'; in this case it's simply a more accurate description of the individuals concerned. We could debate endlessly about whether the social sciences count as "real" science, but they obviously don't have the same rigour or objectivity as say physiology or chemistry. So to generalise them as "scientists" here is to give a misleading impression. Furthermore, if you actually read the references you will find that in most cases Landmark gets no more than a passing mention (ranging between a couple of sentences and a couple of pages). Most of the writers don't claim to have studied or even observed any of Landmark's courses, and are repeating hearsay or offering armchair speculation. Once again to imply that this is an authoritative "view" is misleading.

The source for the opening sentence is - as I said - a lifestyle article in one of Rupert Murdoch's tabloids. It's debatable whether that counts as a reliable source at all. The justification for the sentence consists of two single-line quotes: on the one hand "clinical psychologist Bob Montgomery told 7.30 he was concerned there was no credible science backing the controversial techniques" (incidentally there's no suggestion of Montgomery making any study of the Landmark Forum to arrive at that view), and on the other hand neuroscientist Dr Charles Watson said "Speaking from my expertise and experience as a medical doctor and former chief health officer, my view is that there is absolutely nothing harmful in Landmark's programs". That's surely pretty slender grounds for the assertion that "scientists are divided"? The reference to Watson again in the third sentence is also misleading, since there is no evidence that he expressed any opinion on the issue of whether or not Landmark could reasonably be described as a "new religious movement".

I'm not greatly bothered about the wording of the third sub-head. But I do think it's maybe giving undue weight to devote so much space to a biased and sensationalist TV program from 16 years ago. DaveApter (talk) 11:29, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Since no-one has contested my observations above, I am removing the non-WP:RS ref and the inaccurate and unsupported statements. DaveApter (talk) 11:46, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Tactics and Methods[edit]

Does anyone mind if I create a section on methods or technology used within the forum? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dabrams13 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

That would be fine as long as the info is sourced from Independent Sources WP:IS, NOT Landmark's website or course materials. ---Avatar317 ^(talk) 19:44, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Removed Vandalism[edit]

Reverted to last edit today (May 13) from vandalism in lead paragraph. Alex Jackl (talk) 03:21, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

NPOV comment removed[edit]

An anonymous editor added an inappropriate assertion to the lead, cited to a Mother Jones article. Apart from the fact that the statement is clearly one of opinion, not fact, and that the writer of the article has no notable expertise in the subject, it is clearly not justified to editorialise that ""To date...continues to..." based on a reference which is eleven years old. It would be appropriate to discuss changes on this talk page before making controversial edits to an article such as this, which has reached a stable consensus after a contentious history. DaveApter (talk) 15:16, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

ANHDUC - WIKI 2

Thursday, June 24, 2021