Talk:Common Era

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For Wikipedia policy on use of AD/CE and BCE/BC notation, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers § Era style.

Sourcing opposition points based on religious reasons[edit]

The first thing noted about opposition is that that there are points based on explicitly religious reasons, the Southern Baptist Convention's resolution on the matter being a good example, but also a primary source and therefore merely an example. One such religious point stated is christians being offended by the removal of references to Christ (again the SBC source is a good example of that), but the source actually being used to support this is not that good of a fit, and in the example being explored there the offended christian seems to be more offended by the attempt at political correctness than the religious side of it: "Still she is bothered by what B.C.E. and C.E. imply -- that Jesus is the starting point but we mustn't say so. She's bothered also because the National Geographic company sells Christmas cards. She says, "It's like they are playing both sides."". So while the source is an good for backing of offense at the removal of christian references I'm not sure it's that good at backing religious offense at the removal of christian references in particular.
I guess one could move it to a separate point, but then the point about religious reasons would only be backed by the SBC's say on the matter. There have to be better sources on this. 213.94.20.237 (talk) 08:48, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The problem is that some religious opposition is explicit (as in the SBC) and some implicit (hiding behind an allegation of "political correctness"). The first is easy to cite, the second takes a lot more work to find reliable sources that make that link. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 09:07, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"CE and BCE have become popular in academic and scientific publications, because of the inaccuracy of BC and AD" : WP:BRD discussion[edit]

On 5 August last, Donbodo changed the sentence

  • Since the later 20th century, CE and BCE are popular in academic and scientific publications as religiously neutral terms.[1][2]

so that it reads

  • Since the later 20th century, CE and BCE are popular in academic and scientific publications, because of the inaccuracy of BC and AD (they are based on a mistaken date for the birth of Jesus),[3] or because BCE and CE are religiously neutral terms.[4][5] (my emphasis)

I (and others) reverted that insertion. I gave as my reasons to do so as "mistaken date of birth for Jesus of Nazareth" is WP:UNDUE in the lead and highly dubious as being the reason for anyone preferring CE. Deleted. Maybe a place can be found for it in the body but it is very off-topic. There have been multiple reinstatements and deletions since then and we are in danger of drifting into WP:EDITWAR. So let's see if we can resolve it here. I may be wrong but I suspect that the difference is just one of emphasis or simple misunderstanding, but without access to the paywalled magazine article, it is hard to tell.

First, I don't believe that there is any credible support for the view that the epoch of AD/BC (and thus CE/BCE) is not in fact the most likely date for the birth of Jesus of Nazareth: I certainly don't believe it. Is this the cause of our dispute? Because it makes no sense that to believe that academic and scientific publications are the least bothered that Dionysius Exiguus got it a little bit wrong. It is of no significance. Even more to the point, CE by definition has the same epoch as AD so "academics and scientists" would gain no additional accuracy whatever by changing the name. I really cannot believe that History Today would make such a crazy assertion and the snippet they allow us to see for free certainly does not do so.

Does that explain my reversion more clearly? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:17, 20 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The "inaccuracy" reason for preferring CE over AD is one I've never heard before. The History Today article presents it as a "final argument" in the 60-word last paragraph. Moreover it is presented as a argument from the author, not as a reason that matters to anyone else. So the source does not support the text. Zerotalk 02:15, 21 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, right to remove it. JMF's last point is especially telling. Johnbod (talk) 04:03, 21 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, it's a ridiculous argument. Doug Weller talk 09:07, 21 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

References

  1. ^ Espenak, Fred (25 Feb 2008). "Year dating conventions". NASA. Retrieved 24 August 2021.
  2. ^ "BC and AD vs. BCE and CE: How to Use Correctly". The Editor's Manual. May 31, 2021. Retrieved 24 August 2021.
  3. ^ "BC and AD, BCE and CE: What's the Difference?". 1 Dec 2017. Retrieved 5 August 2022.
  4. ^ Espenak, Fred (25 Feb 2008). "Year dating conventions". NASA. Retrieved 24 August 2021.
  5. ^ "BC and AD vs. BCE and CE: How to Use Correctly". The Editor's Manual. May 31, 2021. Retrieved 24 August 2021.
In a statement explaining why scholars prefer CE/BCE, the question of whether they are correct or not is irrelevant, is it not? It is not a statement about what is correct. It is a statement about scholars' opinions. So your first objection, namely that you do not believe there is any credible support for the view that AD/BC is not based on the most likely date for the birth of Jesus is moot. What matters is whether a significant number of scholars use BCE/CE because they believe the date is incorrect. Also irrelevant is whether you or anyone else personally believes CE/BCE is more accurate. What matters is only whether a significant number of scholars do. An article was cited that clearly states that there are scholars with this opinion. You may find it hard to believe that they do, but they do. I myself am a scholar with this opinion, and I know others who hold it. I request that you stop using a Wikipedia article to teach others what you believe is true. --Don Bodo (talk) 20:30, 19 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You keep trying to change the argument. Whether the date is correct for the birth of Jesus is irrelevant, I would agree that almost any scholar who cares believes the dates are incorrect. However this is not the reason for choosing BCE over BC. The reason for choosing BCE over BC is because it is religiously neutral. Your edits are attempting to hide this by making up some other bogus reason, using more words to describe it and putting it first, in an attempt to obscure the real reason.Spitzak (talk) 21:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:OR to claim that CE and BCE have become popular in academic and scientific publications "because of the inaccuracy of BC and AD", fullstop. Only one editor is insisting on it, using one article in which he is misrepresenting what the article says (even if he wasn't—one article isn't enough to substantiate this claim). Unless the terms change, this debate needs to come to an end.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 22:46, 19 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It already had come to an end, at the end of last month, with the assertion being dismissed with derisory laughter. The discussion is closed. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was expecting more of a professional response from someone, anyone. Instead I get unsupported assertions and a false accusation of misrepresentation. I can see this article has been commandeered by invested parties. Don Bodo (talk) 10:23, 27 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes, but what does it mean?[edit]

As of this date, 2022-10-01, this article does not explain what BCE and CE actually mean. It's a history of the terms' usage, but the article assumes that people reading this article already understand what BCE and CE are. I was looking for a clear explanation of what BCE is -- how it is used, what that number means, how a given date is calculated, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.220.233.223 (talk) 16:52, 1 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It means the calendar era commonly used today. Do Common Era and Before the Common Era are alternatives to the Anno Domini (AD) and Before Christ (BC) notations used by Dionysius Exiguus and Since the later 20th century, CE and BCE have become popular in academic and scientific publications because BCE and CE are religiously neutral terms not explain that sufficiently? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:08, 1 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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