Talk:Avicenna

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Google Doodle[edit]

There is a new Google Doodle entitled Ibn Sina's 1038th Birthday published today. Throughout the cover text for the doodle and on the doodle itself Google uses "Ibn Sina", admitting just once that he was sometimes known as "Avicenna" in the West. The search link is also for "Ibn Sina". Now although the doodle went out in several countries, it was targeted mainly at North Africa where Ibn Sīnā is his commonly used name. It appears that "Avicenna" is the commonly used western name. For example in the Time article about the doodle Avicenna is used. There is no reason to change the article title or the text of the article on the basis of a doodle sent to be intelligible to a non-English speaking audience. And I see the article has now been protected to stop this. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 09:49, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

  • Without expressing any opinion on the merits of either name, it does bother me that usage switches randomly between Avicenna and Ibn Sina throughout the article. It would be much better consistency-wise to pick one and use it thoughout than to use both. - HIGHFIELDS (TALK • UPLOADS) 13:55, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
The name of the great doctor and philosopher, in English, is Avicenna. In the English wikipedia, we use English names. So, for example, we call Rome a city that no Roman calls Rome. The name of the city is "Roma", but we don't care, because we use English names. The same can be said of "Venezia," of "Αθήνα," of "רוּשָׁלַיִם‬." Great names all, but useless for us, because this is the English wikipedia, not the Italian, nor Greek, nor Hebraic wikipedia. Untill some clown comes along and redirects _all_ of the English wikipedia names to some supposedly original or "politically correct" name, Avicenna it should stay, and, for consistency, this is the name that should be used throughout the article. XavierItzm (talk) 17:55, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Ibn Sina has been increasingly used in academic literature in recent years. Perhaps with time this variant will become predominant as happened with Peking/Beijing and Tamerlane/Timur, but at the moment Avicenna seems to be more common. Eperoton (talk) 01:48, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
This seems a sensible position (and devoid of inane paranoia about "political correctness"). We can wait and see what the literature uses. Pinkbeast (talk) 10:22, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I agree with XavierItzm. The most common name in English sources matters. Why some parts of article use "Ibn Sina"? What's the point of using it? It does not make any sense in my opinion. --Wario-Man (talk) 06:40, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Persian[edit]

change ((Persian)) to ((Persians|Persian)) -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:541:4500:1760:1c50:13ba:7843:a475 (talk • contribs) 18:40, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

The first usage of Persian links to Persian people. I see that Persians itself redirects to Persian people. If you want any of the other 34 instances of the word 'Persian' in this article linked, please give the full sentence for context so it's clear which one you are referring to. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 18:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Order of the names[edit]

@Wikaviani: The birth name must be referred first and then the nicknames, mononyms or pen names. As you can see in featured articles of BLPs. Bi-on-ic (talk) 07:21, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Hey Bi-on-ic, thanks for taking the time to explain your changes. I'll self-revert. Cheers.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 07:35, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Removing mention of being Muslim from opening section[edit]

What is the legitimacy of some users, including @HistoryofIran:, removing the mention of him being Muslim from the opening section, which is commonly included in other articles? Does anyone actually doubt the veracity of him being Muslim? — LissanX (talk) 02:11, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

The source being quoted in the article, from Britannica [1] says that he was a Muslim physician. So why is the other user removing it several times the mention of Muslim when it's not only relevant but also well sourced (in fact the source in the article mentions it) that he was a Muslim? 77.16.56.227 (talk) 03:16, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Sigh, there's obviously no doubt that Avicenna was Muslim, however, it's completely irrelevant information. Should we start adding 'Christian' to the lede of Thomas Jefferson, etc? No. Also, I didn't remove anything, I simply restored the original revision. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:21, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
First of all, there's disagreements amongst historians whether Thomas Jefferson actually was a Christian or not, considering he denied basic beliefs of Christianity, he didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah nor the son of God among other things etc... However, there's clear evidence that Avicenna was very religious, and that he was a Muslim. Even the very source that you used CLEARLY says he was a Muslim. And how is it ''completely irrelevant'' to include that he's a Muslim considering other articles similar to Avicenna mentions it? 77.16.56.227 (talk) 03:25, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
No, I'm saying it's irrelevant to be in the lede. It's already emphasized in the main text. Also, I haven't used any source, look at the history of the article. --HistoryofIran (talk)

03:26, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't think you get it. The very SAME source that you used mentions in the lead that he was a Muslim physician. So yes, it is relevant to him and should be included in the article. 77.16.56.227 (talk) 03:28, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
It's mentioned in every other article, so why not Avicenna, especially considering how a source[2] used in the same article mentions him being Muslim? 77.16.56.227 (talk) 03:30, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Read my comments. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:31, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Try reading Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography, Context section; "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:32, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Maybe you should read the source I sent you (the same being used in the article). Again, you haven't answered any of our questions, why are you removing the mention of him being Muslim when the sources clearly mentions that he was a Muslim? It is mentioned in the other articles, so why not on Avicenna? 77.16.56.227 (talk) 03:35, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
The same argument can be made for his ethnicity. Why is his ethnicity so important but not his religion? You can't pick and choose.
Avicenna's religion is irrelevant? Avicenna's religion plays a huge part in his life, the Islamic Golden Age? 77.16.56.227 (talk) 03:36, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Also on other articles similar to Avicenna, the religion is mentioned. So why is it not mentioned in Avicenna considering that it is not only relevant but Also important to his life and the sources mentions that he was a Muslim? 77.16.56.227 (talk) 03:45, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • How does one read the introduction without getting the impression that he was not a Muslim? Because that would be the only reason to complain about not mentioning it again, more explicitly. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposed new lede to satisfy OP[edit]

The Muslim[3][4][5][6][7] Ibn Sina (Persian: ابن سینا‎), also known as Abu Ali Sina (ابوعلی سینا), Pur Sina (پورسینا), and often known in the west as Avicenna (/ˌævɪˈsɛnə, ˌɑːvɪ-/; c. 980 – June 1037) was a Muslim Persian[8][9][10] polymath who was a Muslim and is regarded as one of the most significant Muslims, Islamic physicians, Islamic astronomers, Islamic thinkers and Islamic writers of the Islamic Golden Age,[11] and the Muslim father of modern medicine.[12][13][14] Avicenna was Muslim.[3][4][15][6] Avicenna, who was Muslim, is also called "the most influential philosopher of the pre-modern era".[16] He was a Muslim but also a peripatetic philosopher influenced by Aristotelian philosophy as well as Islam. Of the 450 works he is believed to have written as a Muslim, around 240 have survived, including 150 on Islamic philosophy and 40 on medicine.[17] Avicenna was Muslim.[3][4][15][6]

As a Muslim, his most famous works are The Book of Healing, a philosophical and scientific encyclopedia, and The Canon of Medicine, a medical encyclopedia[18][19][20] which became a standard medical text at many medieval universities[21] and remained in use as late as 1650.[22] Avicenna was Muslim.[3][4][15][6]

Besides Islam, philosophy, and medicine, Avicenna's corpus includes writings on Islamic astronomy, Islamic alchemy, Islamic geography and geology, Islamic psychology, Islamic theology, Islamic logic, Islamic mathematics, Islamic physics and works of Islamic poetry.[23] Avicenna was Muslim.[3][4][15][6]

References

References

  1. ^ https://www.britannica.com/biography/Avicenna
  2. ^ https://www.britannica.com/biography/Avicenna
  3. ^ a b c d e Janssens, Jules L. (1991). An annotated bibliography on Ibn Sînâ (1970–1989): including Arabic and Persian publications and Turkish and Russian references. Leuven University Press. pp. 89–90. ISBN 978-90-6186-476-9. excerpt: "... [Dimitri Gutas's Avicenna's maḏhab convincingly demonstrates that I.S. was a sunnî-Ḥanafî."[1]
  4. ^ a b c d e Aisha Khan (2006). Avicenna (Ibn Sina): Muslim physician and philosopher of the eleventh century. The Rosen Publishing Group. p. 38. ISBN 978-1-4042-0509-3.
  5. ^ DIMITRI GUTAS, AVICENNA'S "MAḎHAB" WITH AN APPENDIX ON THE QUESTION OF HIS DATE OF BIRTH, Istituto per l'Oriente C. A. Nallino
  6. ^ a b c d e Seyyed Hossein Nasr, An introduction to Islamic cosmological doctrines, Published by State University of New York press, ISBN 0-7914-1515-5 p. 183
  7. ^ Sharaf Khorasani, Islamic Great encyclopedia, vol. 1. p. 3 1367 solar
  8. ^ "Avicenna and the Visionary Recital". Princeton University Press. Retrieved 2018-08-12. In this work a distinguished scholar of Islamic religion examines the mysticism and psychological thought of the great eleventh-century Persian philosopher and physician Avicenna (Ibn Sina), author of over a hundred works on theology, logic, medicine, and mathematics.
  9. ^ Daly, Jonathan (2013-12-19). The Rise of Western Power: A Comparative History of Western Civilization. A&C Black. p. 18. ISBN 978-1-4411-1851-6.
  10. ^ "Avicenna | Persian philosopher and scientist", Encyclopedia Britannica, retrieved 2018-08-04
  11. ^ * Bennison, Amira K. (2009). The great caliphs: the golden age of the 'Abbasid Empire. New Haven: Yale University Press. p. 195. ISBN 978-0-300-15227-2. Avicenna was a Persian whose father served the Samanids of Khurasan and Transoxania as the administrator of a rural district outside Bukhara.
    • Paul Strathern (2005). A brief history of medicine: from Hippocrates to gene therapy. Running Press. p. 58. ISBN 978-0-7867-1525-1..
    • Brian Duignan (2010). Medieval Philosophy. The Rosen Publishing Group. p. 89. ISBN 978-1-61530-244-4..
    • Michael Kort (2004). Central Asian republics. Infobase Publishing. p. 24. ISBN 978-0-8160-5074-1.
    • "He was born in 370/980 in Afshana, his mother's home, near Bukhara. His native language was Persian" (from "Ibn Sina ("Avicenna")", Encyclopedia of Islam, Brill, second edition (2009). Accessed via Brill Online at www.encislam.brill.nl).
    • "Avicenna was the greatest of all Persian thinkers; as physician and metaphysician ..." (excerpt from A.J. Arberry, Avicenna on Theology, KAZI PUBN INC, 1995).
    • "Whereas the name of Avicenna (Ibn Sina, died 1037) is generally listed as chronologically first among noteworthy Iranian philosophers, recent evidence has revealed previous existence of Ismaili philosophical systems with a structure no less complete than of Avicenna" (from p. 74 of Henry Corbin, The Voyage and the messenger: Iran and philosophy, North Atlantic Books, 1998.
  12. ^ Keyhani, Ali; Torkaman, Samira (2017-12-28). Ibn Sina (1st ed.). CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform. ISBN 978-1-9842-9641-2. Ibn Sina is called the father of modern medicine for establishing a clinical practice.
  13. ^ Saffari, Mohsen; Pakpour, Amir (2012-12-01). "Avicenna's Canon of Medicine: A Look at Health, Public Health, and Environmental Sanitation". Archives of Iranian medicine. 15: 785–9. Avicenna was a well-known Persian and a Muslim scientist who was considered to be the father of early modern medicine.
  14. ^ Colgan, Richard (2009-09-19). Advice to the Young Physician: On the Art of Medicine. Springer Science & Business Media. p. 33. ISBN 978-1-4419-1034-9. Avicenna is known as the father of early modern medicine.
  15. ^ a b c d Cite error: The named reference Muslim 3 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  16. ^ "Avicenna (Ibn Sina) | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy".
  17. ^ O'Connor, John J.; Robertson, Edmund F., "Avicenna", MacTutor History of Mathematics archive, University of St Andrews.
  18. ^ Nasr, Seyyed Hossein (2007). "Avicenna". Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Archived from the original on 31 October 2007. Retrieved 2007-11-05.
  19. ^ Edwin Clarke, Charles Donald O'Malley (1996), The human brain and spinal cord: a historical study illustrated by writings from antiquity to the twentieth century, Norman Publishing, p. 20 (ISBN 0-930405-25-0).
  20. ^ Iris Bruijn (2009), Ship's Surgeons of the Dutch East India Company: Commerce and the progress of medicine in the eighteenth century, Amsterdam University Press, p. 26 (ISBN 90-8728-051-3).
  21. ^ "Avicenna 980–1037". Hcs.osu.edu. Archived from the original on October 7, 2008. Retrieved 2010-01-19.
  22. ^ e.g. at the universities of Montpellier and Leuven (see "Medicine: an exhibition of books relating to medicine and surgery from the collection formed by J.K. Lilly". Indiana.edu. Archived from the original on 14 December 2009. Retrieved 2010-01-19.).
  23. ^ "Avicenna", in Encyclopædia Iranica, Online Version 2006". Iranica.com. Retrieved 2010-01-19.
  • If the IP isn't 100% satisfied with the above version, then I have to ask why they want us to hide the fact that Avicenna was Muslim. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose We don't write "Isaac Newton was a Christian English...". However, just like Newton, we can add Avicenna's religion and a brief/summary of his religious views in the lead if they're relevant information. e.g. "Avicenna was a Muslim and ... (rest of paragraph)". See Isaac Newton to understand my point. --Wario-Man (talk) 07:02, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
For the record, the proposal is a Reductio ad absurdum intended to get OP and IP to back down. They can't honestly say it's an improvement, but not saying so means that we don't have to plaster "Avicenna was a Muslim" into and inbetween every single sentence of the lede, which opens the door to accepting that the lede is already in a state where one could not read it without concluding he was Muslim. Ian.thomson (talk) 07:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Well... then my comment is in a wrong place. --Wario-Man (talk) 16:24, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
The IP (who is probably the same as [2]) is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia [3]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:06, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
The IP is on a dynamic range - here's their edit history - but it's a wireless broadband connection..[4] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 16:32, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose and comment I still don't get how the religion of Avicenna is relevant in the lede. Is the religion of Isaac Newton relevant in the lede of his article ? Clearly not. Best.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 23:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Avicenna was literally an Islamic philosopher, but him being Muslim "is not relevant". The rabid Islamophobia on Wikipedia trying to "de-Islamify" Muslim figures through weak excuses is ludicrous. An example of a Christian individual who had nothing to do with Christianity, Thomas Jefferson, is being used to remove the word Muslim from an article about an Islamic philosopher. We might as well be removing any mentions of the Pope being Catholic or the Dalai Lama being Buddhist. The fact that this irrational and hypocritical censoring of the article is even being discussed, let alone justified through foolish comparisons with Thomas Jefferson, is a joke. — LissanX (talk) 00:37, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

It looks like you're aiming for a second block for harassment/personal attacks [5]. Grow up. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Please desist from such irrelevant comments like "The rabid Islamophobia on Wikipedia trying to "de-Islamify" Muslim figures through weak excuses is ludicrous". Nobody denies that Avicenna was a Muslim scholar, but Ian.thomson's question is perfectly relevant here, and so far, you failed to provide a satisfactory answer.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 22:14, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposed new lede[edit]

Avicenna, who is sometimes called Ibn Sina or Abu Ali Sina by demanding, entitled Muslims who have the gall to refer to him by his real name, was an Islamic philosopher whose Muslim identity had nothing to do with his Islamic philosophy. Some have suggested that he was Persian, but who cares, that's not relevant in this article about him. He was polymath who had nothing to do with Islam and is regarded as one of the most significant Islamic figures whose Muslim identity is irrelevant. Muslims are bad. The world renowned Wikipedia editors Ian.thomson and HistoryofIran have attested that he is the greatest Islamic philosopher whose Muslim identity is irrelevant, comparing him, in their infinite wisdom, to Thomas Jefferson.

His most famous works are The Book of Healing, a philosophical and scientific encyclopedia, and The Canon of Medicine, a medical encyclopedia, both of which prove he wasn't a Muslim.

Besides not being Muslim, philosophy, and medicine, Avicenna's corpus includes writings on Astronomy in medieval Islam (which has nothing to do with Islam), Alchemy and chemistry in medieval Islam (also has nothing to do with Islam), Geography and cartography in medieval Islam (sigh, not Muslim), Psychology in medieval Islam (HistoryofIran hasn't moved the page to a new title removing the word Islamic yet), Islamic theology (also has nothing to do with Islam), Logic in Islamic philosophy, Mathematics in medieval Islam, Physics in medieval Islam and works of Islamic poetry, all of which had absolutely no relevance to being Muslim, just like Thomas Jefferson. Note that our Wikipedia editors are working hard to revise these articles to not include the words "Islam" or "Muslim" because they are irrelevant.

Ian.thomson has suggested that even a single mention of Avicenna being Muslim is tantamount to peppering the article with the word a thousand times and living under Sharia Law.[citation needed] Writer HistoryofIran even addressed the UN, saying "Iranians have been gassed and their bodies turned into milk crates by evil Muslims. Why should we mention Islamic philosophers are Muslim? The word 'Muslim' is tantamount to profanity and is bad. We don't go around mentioning Whoopie Goldberg is Jewish, do we? This is a perfect example of why I'm right."[citation needed] This drew cheers from the crowd, except from Saudi diplomats who threw fisticuffs. Whoopie Goldberg responded, saying "I ain't Jewish".

@LissanX: Your point would come across better if you weren't making shit up about people and engaging in personal attacks in a way that give the impression you're not here in good faith. At no point did I deny that he was Muslim. I'll ask again: How is it possible to read the current lede without arriving at the understanding that he was Muslim? Ian.thomson (talk) 02:11, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@Ian.thomson: talking about "making shit up" after a fake proposal pretending that one mention of "Muslim" is the same as a thousand mentions and an Islamic takeover of the lede? Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. — LissanX (talk) 02:37, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@LissanX: Once again: how is it possible to read the current lede without arriving at the understanding that he was Muslim? The lede doesn't hide that he's Muslim. Your counter-proposal actually did put words in other people's mouths. My joke proposal pointed out the absurdity in your bad-faith accusation that others are hiding the fact that he's Muslim, when the lede doesn't actually hide that fact at all from anyone who is literate. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:26, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
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