Talk:East End of London

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April 11, 2007	Good article nominee	Listed
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November 28, 2007	Featured article candidate	Promoted
Current status: Featured article

This article was the showcase article of the London Portal in May 2007.

The Olympic Park[edit]

According to the boundaries defined at length earlier in the article, the Olympic Park is not in the East End, so why is it included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peteste (talk • contribs) 22:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Local authority "harassment" NPOV?[edit]

Is it NPOV to say local authority harassment? In one sense there is a reference so it is substantiated, but I still think something more neutral like "attempts by the local authority to stop it" would be more NPOV. SimonTrew (talk) 20:45, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually yes (I didn't write that sentence), but anyone in that particular business is likely to be the subject of licensing restraints and conditions that constitute harassment. It's almost certainly supported by the existing reference. I'll change it to the less charged 'restraints' - but I suspect it'll be reverted. Kbthompson (talk) 01:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Bangladeshis ?[edit]

there is nothing much about how Bangladeshis have influenced the East End, the history of racial hatred against them, establishment of Sylheti-owned Indian restaurants and such many more. I clearly do not think this article is complete without these informations, even though they are an immigrant ethnic community, but however thriving and well established in the East End especially in Spitalfields, Whitechapel (Tower Hamlets area). History of Bangladeshis in the United Kingdom may help, or British Bangladeshi can also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.14.119 (talk) 23:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Well add it then. Go careful with the accusations of racism. SimonTrew (talk) 23:24, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The main intention of this article was to provide a well-referenced history of the East End. The main academic article on Sylheti migration to the district is referenced in the article - but I really couldn't find much else. I'll revisit the matter over the next few days, and probably solve the matter by finding a way to introduce those links into the text. It's always more difficult to deal with a current phenomena using reliable sources than something that has an established history of published academic research. You could also say that the Huguenots (who founded much of the district you refer to, and lived there for two centuries); or the Jewish population of the 1880s (a far larger group numerically); are under-represented in the article. Of necessity, the article is an overview and an attempt to interest the reader look at the links to more detailed information on individual topics - many are covered in single sentences. I recently expanded Ethnic groups in London, which included information on the Sylheti community - you may wish to review that; and by all means expand it, or correct it - I've added a link to that article at the head of the population section.

Simon, I don't think the contributor was trying to establish racism in the article, but rather to say that the difficulties experienced by that community were under-represented in the article. That violence is mentioned in the article, but not in detail - I think Altab Ali (he's a redirect) is probably worth mentioning, as the demo protesting that death was a turning point in community relations - it was not just Bangladeshi on that protest. By comparison, most individuals mentioned in the article relate to their influence on national politics, or social reform. The main point is that any changes need to be referenced to reliable sources; there are some in that article - but not as many as in this, and it is important to maintain the quality of this article. Hope that helps Kbthompson (talk) 01:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm also inclined to mention the achievements of Pola Uddin, Baroness Uddin. Comments? Kbthompson (talk) 01:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to impute racism and if it sounded that way I am sorry, I was just saying go careful. I did look on :WP to try to find policies but there really aren't many except for racial abuse against other users (unless I am looking in the wrong place). SimonTrew (talk) 03:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Some of that has been done; small expansion of 1971 arrival and 1970s racist attacks to come. The prime directive on wikipedia is verifiability - so, it's OK to quote cited racist opinions - see Evans-Gordon, 1902, about the Jews; much the same was said about the Irish, a century earlier (actually much worse); and previously about the Huguenots. That quotation was particularly good, because it was from an MP and member of the ruling party; you wouldn't want a quote from a modern fringe politician. The quote also has the advantage of distance; you can see echoes in what is said about ethnic minorities today - but that was said about a group a hundred years ago; the sky didn't fall in and the group (like those before) became integrated into a wider society. So - it places it in context. Most editors would take a dim view if you expressed such thoughts as your own opinion. The difficulty is obtaining a balance, so there is no undue weight given to either group - difficult when a community is under attack and suffering violence and abuse. The beneficial effects of immigration tend to be intangibles; and only really appreciated in a historical context - so, few contemporary references. Throughout Britain, the majority of curry houses are run by Bangladeshis; and it's a business worth about £4bn - difficult to tease out the effect on the local economy. Like our IP friend, I've seen it's thriving - but to include it in wikipedia I need somebody from a university to do a study. Most of the possible refs are a bit iffy for FA - articles like the Guardian Style section, and such like. HTH Kbthompson (talk) 13:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sally Army[edit]

My family are all east end cor blimey luv a duck etc. and I would actually like a sec on the sally army to slot into around about the 1930sish-- it was incredibly strong during the Great Depression. But I have to do my research first. SimonTrew (talk) 03:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Try to aim for brevity. The foundation is dealt with, but yes, little of the 1930s soup kitchens, and expansion of the hostels (the City paid for them, but insisted they weren't located in the City! - although I'd be hard pressed to ref that). Any major text should expand Salvation Army. That brings to mind, I'm not sure if Ghandi got a mention - I'll check that. Ultimately, this article is near the recommended limit for size; so, pithiness is a virtue. Kbthompson (talk) 08:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with you on pretty much all points. Usually when I edit an article it gets shorter (though in talk I am more verbose). I did mean the sally army specifically as it was in the East End and not just the whole organisation generally.

We've rather hijacked "Bangladeshi" so I am gonna split this out into another section outSimonTrew (talk) 10:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

59 Brick Lane[edit]

I think there should be some mention or an article about 59 Brick Lane. This one of the famous historical buildings in the capital, and I believe an article should be available, which is an important part of the East End of London. This building was home to successive immigrant communities in the East End, a former Protestant Church, A Jewish Chapel, a Methodist Church, a Jewish synagogue and today a Mosque, ethnically to the French, Jews and Bangladeshis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.211.185.85 (talk) 12:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Well add it then, nobody's stopping you. Look at Brick Lane and the "See also"s therefrom, if it is very significant it may be better to make a separate article. Personally I've never heard of it. SimonTrew (talk) 22:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a para about the history of the building at Brick Lane; here it would probably amount to undue weight since, it doesn't really have national significance. Otherwise, why not mention the nearby 19 Princelet Street, or Dennis Severs' House - there's a line gotta be drawn in such a large article; and this is the level of detail that's best dealt with in more local articles. Thanks Kbthompson (talk) 23:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

OK must be pretty obscure then, I didn't even spot it in the Brick Lane article (perhaps my naive search for "59" was the trouble?). So, agree; this article refs brick lane, which then goes on to see also more specific articles. SimonTrew (talk) 23:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

La Neuve Eglise, or London Jamme Masjid; Wesley's first sermon was preached across the road - but not here. It is too fine grained for this article. Kbthompson (talk) 09:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah, 59 is not actually the mosque; it's the building next door. The mosque probably deserves its own article - not sure why this one is nominated though. Kbthompson (talk) 09:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Crime[edit]

Hi All, KBthompson, SimonTrew, IP people and anyone else
great article! But did notice one sentence in the crime section that came over a bit odd

"...Unlike the former constables, the police were recruited widely and so were initially disliked"

I imagine that i understand the meaning of the sentence reasonably well, but exactly why the wide recruitment meant that the police force were initially disliked is not necessarily clear from that statement
eg. Why is 'dislike' percieved to be the natural response. I think that the sentence needs a 'because' and v. brief explanation as to why they were initially disliked.
Anyway, great article - the bit that i have mentioned is not a major part of it, and may come across as nit-picking in the greater scheme of things - Well done all Darigan (talk) 12:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi ya; and all comments - positive and negative are welcomed! Before the Met ('cepting the runners); London was policed by a system of parish beadles and constables. They consisted of one man elected from the parish they policed, this had advantages - they had mates - and disadvantages (they had mates!) - they were open to corruption, bribery and not above pinching the odd thing that wasn't nailed down on their own behalf. They were paid: sometimes by the parish, more often by shop keepers and by what they could get by extortion. Essentially, it was an 'unpaid' civic duty, in some districts, lamplighters also carried rattles to raise the alarm.

The first met officers were paid professionals - and paid by a levy on the parish - ie from rateable householders. That wasn't popular. There was once a rule that policemen could not police the neighbourhood they lived, or grew up in. I looked for some back up to that; and when it was introduced - no luck! I did find some evidence in an OU course - in which it says "around 10% of recruits for the Metropolitan Police were born in London during the first half of the nineteenth century. This figure rose to 25 per cent during the twentieth century." This indicates the contrarywise notion that 90% came from beyond London - but equally it does not account for people who had moved to London; and subsequently joined the met.

If it causes confusion, maybe best cast as "Because they were widely recruited, unlike the former parish constables, they were initially disliked". It's actually a bit stronger than that - the first two constables killed on active duty were recorded at a coroner's court (by a jury) as "justifiable homicides" ... Kbthompson (talk) 16:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Known 'vernacularly' as "the East End"?[edit]

Is it really known vernacularly as "the East End", or is it just known as "the East End"? I think the self-appointed grammatical pomp of some Wikipedia contributors leads them to assume that because something seems to be a contraction, that that contraction exists and is somehow false. No one ever calls the East End 'the East End of London' except to differentiate it from other 'East Ends'. There is no 'official full name', the only name is the East end - just as the West end is the West end.

When people say "the East end" they are not being more vernacular, they are just being less specific. When people say "the East end of London" they are not being more formal or more 'proper' or 'official' or using its 'proper name' - they are just being more specific. It doesn't have a proper name, and there is no formal terminology, therefore there can be no 'vernacular'. You could be even more specific and say "the East end of London, England" or "the East end of London, England, Great Britain, United Kingdom etc etc". Just as you could be less specific and just say "east" - as in "I'm going east" (which can mean "I'm heading in an easterly direction by the compass" but which can also mean in London "I'm going to east London"

This, I think, is one of those gestures toward sounding 'more academic' or 'more smart' that I think Wikipedia contributors sometimes fall foul to.

94.193.101.49 (talk) 11:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I don't think 'vernacularly' is even a word (it's usually expressed 'in the vernacular') but in this case a phrase like 'also known simply as "The East End"' would be better. I've been bold... Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 13:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

"Vernacularly" is definitely a word. tomasz. 07:52, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Seems reasonable - I don't know where the word crept in ... Kbthompson (talk) 15:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Enfranchisement of women?[edit]

There is a claim that the rise of the Labour Party and the enfranchisement of women were somehow created (and implicitly linked) in the East End. The Labour Party was not particularly involved, having refused Pankhurst membership because she was a woman, and the Liberal Party give partial franchise in 1918 (or 1919), followed by equalisation of franchise in 1930 (Stanley Baldwin, Conservative). Wee Jimmy (talk) 18:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

"Maps that show the East End's goath"[edit]

Its "goath"? tomasz. 07:53, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Origin of the term "East End"[edit]

The article quotes an 1888 publication as saying "[The] invention about 1880 of the term 'East End'", but the term appears frequently in literature predating 1880. For instance:

From 1862:
"The antipodes to the fashionable world is Petticoat Lane... It is to the East End what Regent Street is to the West." (The Criminal Prisons of London and Scenes of Prison Life, Mayhew and Binny, pg 47.)

Mayhew and Binny style it differently when referring to direction: "the very east-end of the town" (pg 59).

From 1870:
"Pleasure gardens and dancing rooms in the East and West End of London" (Prostitution, William Acton, Table of Contents.)
"...in the West End of London. In the East End and over the water..." (pg 16).
"Some shades of prostitution unknown to the more fashionable West are to be discerned in the East End of London." (pg 22).
"...to the "young man" of the East-end warehouse..." (pg 41).

Those are but a couple examples. Others are easily found by Googling. Now I don't want to mess with so distinguished an article, but the term "East End" certainly seems to have had a much earlier birth than suggested and perhaps that portion of the quotation ought to be removed or at least flagged as inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poluistor~enwiki (talk • contribs) 19:24, 25 July 2014‎

Interesting. I've just checked it in the OED. The earliest citation there is from 1742, from the New & Complete Survey of London, "From the West ... to the East End of London"; and the next is from 1831, Encyclopedia of America (but referring to London), "In the East End are found the docks and warehouses connected with ship-building". It does look as if this needs some revision. GrindtXX (talk) 21:32, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

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Potential further reading[edit]

One book that may be helpful to add to the further reading section is Forty Years of Scotland Yard, as the majority of it talks about his experiences with the East End. 69.73.22.22 (talk) 17:47, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

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