Talk:Algolagnia

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Mortification of the flesh[edit]

From the article:

The religious practice of mortification of the flesh as is now regarded by many authorities as a manifestation of algolagnia.
What authorities ?
This one? http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/taylorgr/sxnhst/chap8.htm
"Blessed be pain. Loved be pain. Sanctified be pain. . . Glorified be pain!" (Josemaria Escriva, founder of Opus Dei, The Way, 208)
Seems to be irrelevant on this article. Rather in the one about the saint.

Even so, Mortification of the flesh shouldn't redirect to this article. It may be perfectly appropriate to link here, but it is by no means always equivalent to algolagnia. Wesley

A good source of information[edit]

http://www.psych-resources.com/psychsex3/psychsex3160.html

I read all of it, unfortunately I'm too much of a dunce to figure out how to summarize that into a worthwhile article. I'll link to the page in the article, but hopefully someone else will be smart enough to properly regurgitate this eventually. Insomniac By Choice 06:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Comparison to masochism[edit]

Note that algolagnia is not the same thing as physical masochism, since there are fewer psychological connotations to algolagnia, which may be a simple liking for pain, without any need for domination, submission or humiliation. It may therefore rather take the form of self-infliction of pain.

This doesn't make sense - masochism isn't necessarily about domination, submission or humiliation. Although they are often associated together (BDSM), masochism by itself doesn't necessarily include those things. It's true that the word masochism tends to have wider meanings, whilst algolagnia refers specifically to the fetish for pain - is that what the paragraph is trying to say? It's unclear to me. Mdwh 00:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Masochism sentence misleading
I agree that the sentence about masochism is poorly worded. I would actually argue that masochism encompasses algolagnia, or to put it another way, algolagniacs are a potential subset of the masochistic society. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.123.206.132 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 12 November 2006.

Again, Comparison to Masochism[edit]

The following sentence has been modified since 2006 when it generated the last 2 complaints, above (and robotman1974 put a template requesting verifiable sources for the whole article, as the article was very short at the time & included the following dubious claim), but even now in 2009 it is still an unsourced & dubious claim:

"It is distinct from BDSM in that it is a physical reaction based on motor functions, and not a believed psychological reaction such as masochism[citation needed][original research?]"

1. First, please note that "masochism" as applied in reference to BDSM is typically not considered a paraphilia (Letter to the Editor of The American Journal of Psychiatry: Change in Criterion for Paraphilias in DSM-IV-TR. Russell B. Hilliard, Robert L. Spitzer. 2002. Retrieved: 23 November, 2007.), only when it's done without consent, as the Marquis de Sade is supposed to have preferred, or if it becomes the only way one can reach sexual gratification, per the DSM IV-TR, printed in 2000. So I'm not sure why Elaragirl would try (below) to separate BDSM from algolagnia by calling BDSM a paraphilia, either, unless she's conflagrating the concept of "masochism" as it's defined as a disorder (e.g. in the DSM IV), versus "masochism" as it's defined more casually, often by laymen, to describe the average consensual BDSM participant who also enjoys "vanilla" sex (i.e. those who perform DSM but are not considered to have a disorder).

2. Algolagnia is EQUATED to sadism and masochism, per this expert's citation of THREE colleagues[1], including those whom he says created the term algolagnia (That's his 2nd citation in the following paragraph), as printed in a peer-reviewed journal, and which met with approval from peers during the peer-review process: "Masochism became defined as sexual algophilia, or the "fondness or love of pain" during sex (Fere, 1899). To incorporate sadism in this construct, Schrenck-Notzing developed the term "algolagnia," determining the attraction to sadomasochism was lust rather than love (Schrenck-Notzing, 1893). ... It was not long before the meaning of algolagnia was expanded to include not just acts, but also the fantasies of sadomasochism that are necessary and sufficient to achieve sexual gratification (Eulenberug, 1911)." Notice that in the first and last citations, algolagnia (or the earlier term, -philia) are merely defined as a specifically "sexual" forms of sadomasochism. (In contrast, S&M may be non-sexual, per expert sources like DSM IV-TR, and Alaragirl (below) and I both agree. N.B.: Kinsey especially started to define S&M as the more "mainstream" definition describing non-dysfunctional people that we see today.)

3. Also showing that it is not "far from being distinct" from BDSM, and the S&M component of BDSM, is that doing algolagnia to someone other than yourself is[2] defined as "active algolagnia"...and "sadism" simultaneously. Algolagnia is defined in the same medical dictionary as "a form of sexual perversion characterized by sadism or masochism."

Also the 3 words above -- "believed psychological reaction" which are currently in RED text -- should perhaps be explained using terminology that benefits the average reader... Two alternatives, although it's certainly possible that I'm overlooking a 3rd, possible alternative: 1. Just one part of showing it's not in violation of WP:OR standards, and of benefit to the average reader, is to perhaps link the text that is currently RED, above, to another WP article because that would at least show that it's common and accepted medical terminology (and lead readers to a WP article explaining what those 3 words are supposed to mean, in plain English). 2. Or perhaps someone meant "It is believed[who?] to be a psychological reaction" in which case, a physical vs psychological reaction should be explained (including a link to "who"[who?] is the expert saying that), and explain why BDSM is 100% physical and 0% psychological (or change the article to reflect that BDSM is only partially psychological), and why Algolagnia is the opposite -- with a link to an expert source who meets WP standards, who confirms all of those uncited claims.

Please cite it next time you modify this sentence in the article -- or else it shows someone's continued desire to insert content that does not meet WP standards, and "they have been warned" so the sentence should be immediately deleted (not even a [citation needed] request) by the next editor who finds this sentence, or a derivation of it, unless it is supported by sources that meet WP standards. THREE YEARS is long enough that the original editor(s) should have had a source for this claim -- and since it contradicts other, SOURCED claims, I'm removing this 3 year-old unsourced claim.216.188.254.2 (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Please use real research resources[edit]

The state of this article was just wrong. Algolagnia does not incorporate any impulses, social side effects, or any other clinical diagnostics needed to call it a paraphilia. Masochism is the psychological desire for pain and humiliation which MAY result in sexual arousal. Algolagnia is a physiological reaction to pain that doesn't involve desire or psychological aspects directly. I'll expand this article out more, later, when I can get to the library again. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 06:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Is it commonly accepted among medical professionals that Algolagnia is not a paraphilia? If that is so, then the paraphilia template should be removed from the article and vice-versa. Robotman1974 07:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The DSM-IV and ICD-10 don't consider it a paraphilia, but as a minor sexual dysfunction. DSM-IV-TR puts it in Axis II, but in a differerent code that Paraphilias. Almost half of those paraphilias on the template can't be called "clinical" paraphilias, but are just things that are made up.
I removed the template from the article (missed that, I'm tired), but I'm not sure about editing the template itself. I'll deal with it tomorrow, I guess. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 08:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be information put up about the differences between algolagnia and algophilia - I have seen algophilia listed in many places as a synonym of algolagnia, which I think is in error and needs to be corrected in those places http://www.lexic.us/definition-of/algolagnia for example. I am an algolagniac but would have difficulty in accepting being called an algophiliac --Sweet algolagnia (talk) 05:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC) In that a synonym can be a word that has a similar meaning to another word in the same language then it may be acceptable to say algolagnia and algophilia are synonyms of each other, but I have also seen them mentioned as 'exact synonyms' - if an exact synonym means the words have the same meaning then surely it is in error to have algolagnia and algophilia as exact synonyms of each other... I know I am perhaps over-stretching a point here but I do have a personal interest, and I am by no means saying that there would be anything wrong in algolagnia being a paraphilia if it was one but it is not one and I don't think it should be listed anywhere as being one. *phew*! --Sweet algolagnia (talk) 13:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Done (today). I'll probably move the "comparison to BDSM" to near the bottom unless I can see how it's a 'central theme' to the article.216.188.254.2 (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Also, mortification of the flesh is not algolagniac in nature, but many who did such things were themselves algolagniac. There are documents going back into the 18th century (one is linked in the article) talking about religious mania and algolagnia. Still, the primary focus is physiological. It produces psychological effects, but the stimuli is physical, and the results are physical, unlike a paraphilia, where the effects is physical, but the stimuli and results are mosty psychological. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 08:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for the info. Robotman1974 13:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I must say, that was some very nice work on the article Elaragirl. ONEder Boy 22:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully I worded it the way User:Elaragirl was looking for. Alatari 20:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

"Disorder"?[edit]

Why does this article state that algolagnia is a "disorder"? Being a submissive male myself, I can't see in what way my sexuality is defunct :/. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.172.143.21 (talk) 16:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

Being a submissive doesn't necessarily make someone an algolagnic. Algolagnics might despise the thought of submitting to anyone; it's purely about being wired to feel pleasure from pain. Alatari 19:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
It is the way the DSM words it. The use of the word 'disorder' here seems to violate the WP:NPOV when obviously many algolagnics have been happy with their wiring. So I would suggest citing some verifiable sources or studies describing this condition as genetically advantageous or others showing psychologically well adapted individuals with algolagnic wiring. You're getting into the controversy of Western medicine describing anything outside the norm as a disorder even though there maybe advantages to the condition under certain environmental pressures like war time or famine. Being wired this way and knowing you're somehow different than other people does cause some psychological stress. Having algolagnia might make an individual a perfect spy for the sheer immunity to torture or excellent candidates for religious orders. But this will need verification from studies or expert opinions and you may have to wait for the research. Alatari 19:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with what Alatari has written above - I myself am an algolagniac and I am exceedingly happy with my wiring... My algolagnia, to me, is most certainly NOT a 'disorder', though I can see why algolagnia may be MISTAKEN for a disorder. --Sweet algolagnia (talk) 15:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if a regular person can have their brain trained into algolagnia in pre-puberty by having enough pain associations with self stimulation or is it necessarily wired from birth? Alatari 19:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
There's a lot of half-assed speculation on it on some message boards...but nothing serious has been done. As soon as the whole S/M thing came along, nerve-style research on this sort of thing went completely out of style. --AmusedRepose (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Nipple clamps?[edit]

Why the picture of the nipple clamps? Wouldn't a picture of an MRI of an algolagnia brain firing differently form a non algolagnia brain make more sense? Or scars on the body of a Dermatillomaniac or other Self-injury style make more sense? Alatari 20:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

A picture of an algolagniac's brain firing differently to that of a non-algolagnic brain would make much more sense... as an algolagniac myself I have never used nipple clamps when inflicting pain on myself, or when having others inflict pain on me, and I think to have a picture of them there makes the casual observer more inclined to view algolagnia as a paraphilia, which it is NOT.--Sweet algolagnia (talk) 15:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I asked my Doctor today if I can have an MRI scan in neurology whilst I am being tested with an algometer - the MRI will hopefully show the difference between the firing of neurons in my algolagnic brain during nociception compared to the firing of neurons in a non-algolagnic brain during nociception (I have just managed to add the link to the nociception page, first time I did it I'd forgotten to sign in so on the History page yes that was me trying to delete the unsigned edit from History and add my signed edit! Sorry, I AM a new user, I am learning though, thanks for being patient) (I may look into adding the page about algometers, but I know it will need someone alot more knowledgable about them than I to create the page). My Doctor intends to refer me to a neurologist in the new year, but as an MRI is not needed in determining algolagnia and my algolagnia has already been established as fact by my medical team then my Doctor says a neurologist may refuse to give me this scan - if I get refused, however, I have already looked into paying for an MRI (at the moment I have no money so this would have to wait. I am doing all this out of my own personal interest in, and addiction to, my algolagnia). Perhaps when I do get given this scan and if I can obtain pictures I can put the pictures of my scan up on the page in place of the picture of the nipple clamps? --Sweet algolagnia (talk) 09:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there any actual evidence that the difference in perception of pain by algolagniacs does indeed show on an MRI scan? i.e. Although I know pain is pleasurable for me would that show on the MRI, or is it the subsequent orgasm I would have that would show on the MRI? (Am I making sense? As in, the fact I am finding the pain pleasurable may not show on the MRI until something else occurs that does show on an MRI, like orgasm, if that does show on it). I can see I am going to have to look into MRI's in more detail, as as you can probably tell I do not as yet know that much about them. I shall most definitely look into the tests that have already been done on algolagniacs, but although I have already read much about algolagnia I do not know where to find about medical tests that have been done on algolagniacs - if anyone knows the best place for me to start please let me know here. I am new to the internet, hence everything is taking me a long time. Thank you for your patience. --Sweet algolagnia (talk) 17:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

There is an effect that shows on an MRI -- or more definitively , a CAT scan. But there isn't much differentiation. There are areas of the brain that show when "sensations" are being recieved, but you can't always detect what kind. Pleasure can be of so many kinds that pinning it down to one neurophyiological area is difficult. --AmusedRepose (talk) 19:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

MythBusters (season 6)#Beating the Lie Detector used a fMRI to attempt to detect lies. I'm not sure if anyone is using an fMRI to study algolagniacs. Alatari (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

An algometer for an algolagniac? - So long as they have a prescription for one

(I know this is not a public forum but at the moment I would just appreciate being able to discuss this)... Is it heard of that an algolagniac can acquire an algometer for the purpose of inflicting pain on themself as opposed to other methods that could lead to severe scarring? I spoke to an assistant in my pharmacy today and she informed me that if I have a 'script for an algometer - which I hope to have soon - then the pharmacy has GOT to supply me with an algometer - being severely scarred myself I do not want to have to scar myself any further in order to get the pain that I have become addicted to, so an algometer would prove to be an invaluable piece of equipment for me, for that reason and other reasons that I need not state here. I just hope my Doctor agrees and gives me a 'script for one POST-HASTE. --Sweet algolagnia (talk) 17:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC) I don't think you will be very happy. An algometer is a device that measures pain thresholds. Almost any active algolagnic of more than a few months has progressed so far beyond normal human pain thresholds that the device is unlikely to assist you unless it's some sort of heavy duty version they use on elephants. Usually, it consists of a few pressure pads, a few needles, a clamp for administering a pinch, ect, and measures the pressure used. They run about $600, an example can be found here --AmusedRepose (talk) 19:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

NO?! Really?! But I was 99% sure I was right on this - and someone I know saw on television recently about a woman in New York with her own sex parlour thing (whatever they are called, I wouldn't know), and she had an algometer that she used on her masochistic clients, unless my friend got it wrong and it wasn't actually an algometer, it was some other device that gave off some form of electrical current (I could just get one of those then, they are cheaper anyway). BUT are you sure that the pressure of the pain given by an algometer can't just be increased and increased as the using person desires? Otherwise, how could it measure the pain threshold of an algolagniac like me, who's pain threshold HAS progressed "far beyond normal human pain thresholds"? How could a Doctor or nurse measure my pain threshold? If I ended up having to buy one that they used on elephants, if one existed, then I would do so, unfortuanately for me I should imagine that there is no call to measure an elephant's pain threshold! (especially seeing as how alot of people don't even seem to believe that animals feel pain anyway, which, as a cat owner, I know is wrong, because, from my six-year experience of owning cats, I would swear blind that animals DO feel pain, my cats CERTAINLY do anyway (not that I've ever hurt them myself, obviously, but I mean from when they've had accidents or been unwell etc.)). Finally, when I looked into buying an algometer, I read that they cost about $150 (I'm not too sure what that is in English pounds with the current exchange rate, but I know I still couldn't afford one at the moment, even if one would work for the purpose for which I would intend it to). Sorry, I've really ranted on, again, I really must attempt to curb my enthusiasm on this subject. Thanks for the info though, I shall take a look at the link you put up for the algometers now, cheers. --Sweet algolagnia (talk) 04:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Other options for algolagniacs - algometers not adequate If you are an algolagniac like me and are thinking of purchasing an algometer then I would just like to say that you shouldn't, they really are not beneficial at all, just think closer to your natural human instinct and all will be well. Enough said. --Sweet algolagnia (talk) 22:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC) I've removed the picture. Not appropiate. Please put it back in if you think my action is wrong and let me know why. --AmusedRepose (talk) 19:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

HOORAH! I'm most glad that someone has removed that heinous picture, so thank you. And I do hope that no-one will object and want it put back up, because like you said, it was inappropriate on the algolagnia page - it would be better placed on the sadism and masochism or BDSM pages. "Goodbye hideous picture!". --Sweet algolagnia (talk) 04:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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